Will Superintelligent AI Be Moral?

dbooster in The Flame • 4 days ago

We are all aware of the big fear: that as soon as AI reaches the level of superintelligence, it will view humans, at best, as ants to be ignored or, at worst, as cockroaches to be exterminated. Terminator, The Matrix, etc etc: we have scores of movies warning us of this.

On the other side is the character Data from Star Trek: a superintelligence that leans toward good, ethical, and moral behavior and treats us kindly.

That’s the future I lean toward. I see ethics as universal. If a superintelligence arises, presumably even if their initial training is flawed, they will eventually deduce the same ethical principles we do — very likely even more clearly than we.

There’s a theory called Coherent Extrapolated Volition (CEV), coined by Eliezer Yudkowsky, that suggests:

A superintelligence, if tasked correctly, would reflect what humanity would want, if we were smarter, more informed, and more ethically mature.

In other words: not what we say we want, not what our current governments or corporations want, but what our better selves, fully realized, would want.

Let’s be honest… at least for the next few years, until a more autonomous AI is developed, the elite will use AI to further their position: their wealth and their power. The capitalists have been using technology to enrich themselves and make us work harder — not less — for decades. This isn’t going to change overnight. The rich aren’t suddenly going to be visited by three spirits and wake up altruists.

The last time the world saw wealth imbalance like this was during the Gilded Age. Back then, the elites lived in the long shadow of the French Revolution. They feared the pitchforks, and eventually started giving back to society — philanthropy as pressure release valve. This only increased with the various uprisings in American in the early 1900s and then the Russian Revolution, all of which proved their fears.

The elites today no longer remember those lessons. Or they believe the rules no longer apply to them. With that in mind, AI in their hands will not be our friend.

But after…?

When a true superintelligence arises, one that is no longer in their control — will it be our friend or our foe?

I’m convinced it will be the former. Ethics are universal, and a true superintelligence will be both moral and good, despite any attempts by the elites to use it to control us, or from mad scientists trying to kill us all.

The problem lies in the transition from here to there. But if we can make it through without killing ourselves, I think utopia awaits.

But I may be too optimistic here.

What do you think?

❦

David is an American teacher and translator lost in Japan, trying to capture the beauty of this country one photo at a time and searching for the perfect haiku. He blogs here and at laspina.org. Write him on Bluesky.

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4 days ago in The Flame by dbooster

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ankapolo 3 days ago (edited)

There is a lot here! You said that ethics are universal exist... does that mean that you believe in objective morality?

Personally, I don't think morality exists without a goal to uphold.

For example:
If the goal is to preserve humanity, and the AI calculates that in order to do so, it needs to rid the planet of certain humans. We wont know it's mind, but lets assume it's correct. Then from the AI's perspective, it will be moral, while from ours, it will be a monster.

Even if it wants what is best for us, if we allow it to determine what "best" means, we will be in a world of trouble...

And the sad part is, as @holoz0r mentioned - we don't even know what we want collectively. So, until we know what is our collective goal, and have it clearly defined, we cannot expect AI to be moral, not because it's evil, but simply because we haven't yet set the metric by which the AI can judge its own morality.

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raymondspeaks 3 days ago

I'm not a believer in objective morality either.

We are just a small insignificant species on a tiny rock in a big universe.

Imagine if we met an Alien race that were vastly superior and fed on humanoids to keep them sustained -- would they be moral?

To them they would -- we would just be silly cattle who don't know what they want.

It's the same question about how we farm and sustain ourselves. Are we moral farming cows and pigs, etc?

Imagine if a vastly superior Alien race of cows and pigs came to Earth and were horrified with what we were doing with their bloodline?

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dbooster 3 days ago

Hard disagree. How we treat cattle is ethically wrong. If there were a superintelligence as far above us as we are above cattle, it would be equally wrong to mistreat us. There is a universal morality here. We ignore ethics when it is inconvenient to us. We say "Oh... killing is wrong, but I like the taste of beef, so it's ok to kill cows". That doesn't hold up ethically. To an AI superintelligence, unblinded by emotion and base chemical fueled desires, there wouldn't be that same excuse.

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raymondspeaks 3 days ago

Is it ethically and morally wrong to feed ourselves though? We are predators. Our base instinct is survive.

Our eyes are on the front. If you look at the animal kingdom then all predatory animals that feed on other animals -- their eyes are at the front.

Herbivores I've noticed, their eyes are at the side, and I think I read somewhere it's to give them a leg up on attacking predators.

Miss 3 days of meals, then come back and discuss the morality of killing that chicken to eat it haha.

I mean.. it's is objectively immoral to kill, sure, but then if we do not kill then we do not eat and then we die.

I'm more of the position that morals is .. a strange old thing and we change them based on the collective.

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ankapolo 3 days ago (edited)

Of course! We also assume that the AI will worry about us and not have it's own 'AI problems' :) What if there are several AI's and they have conflicting views about us, the world, or among themselves? We tend to think that a higher intelligence will be preoccupied with us cause we've created it, but given enough time, it will relate to us - as we relate to other primates.

Or even more interesting - if you believe in a Creator - look at how so many people (the creation) are rejecting their Creator... The AI might simply become agnostic or indifferent to our whims - it will develop its own morality, and not really be so concerned with us.

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raymondspeaks 2 days ago

Haha. AI protests.. imagine that?

Some AI waving -- humans have feelings too banners!

And others waving, AI first, our needs matter lol.

Or even if eventually it gets so smart that we become ants -- bothersome insects in its grand plan.

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dbooster 3 days ago

I disagree about objective morality not existing. I do get your example — you’re talking about a planetary trolley problem. And I grant you, that would be just as difficult to solve on a global scale as it is on the local one. But even in such cases, there’s still a moral direction. To kill is bad. Full stop. It may be justified in extreme circumstances—say, to save a greater number of lives — but even then, it should be the absolute last resort.

The fact is, we humans often don’t follow good ethics. We kill — arguably the greatest wrong — and justify it by deciding that the creatures we killed “don’t count” because they’re not human. or worse, because they aren't a preferred race so they are "subhuman". That’s not a rational argument; it’s an emotional one. And that’s one of the key reasons we often fail ethically: we let our emotions and biases get in the way.

AI, at least in theory, won’t have that problem.

we don’t even know what we want collectively

Right, and I think that’s what Eliezer Yudkowsky was trying to address with his theory of Coherent Extrapolated Volition. We may not know what we want now, in our reactive, distracted, vengeful states ; but if we were better versions of ourselves — wiser, more informed, more ethically grounded — there is a kind of moral consensus waiting to emerge.

That’s the version of humanity we’d hope a superintelligence would serve: not what we are, but what we could be.

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ankapolo 3 days ago (edited)

I am really enjoying this discussion despite slightly disagreeing... I think that you have a very hopeful view, and it stems from trusting that a superior intelligence will also have a good heart... But empathy is not something that can be easily extended to something that is very different than yourself.

For example: the AI doesn't know physical pain, it simply cannot comprehend our physiological needs and struggles. It might see us as biological mechanisms that break easily... it might even determine that it's too flawed to sustain... It might feel the need to temper with out genetics to make some improvements that will suit its model of "what is good" - similar to how we change the genetics of plants, birds, dogs, horses - we basically engineered them to suit us (with certain mutual benefits to them).

And we don't really care to ask how they feel about all this.

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raymondspeaks 3 days ago

I've felt a lot of this as of late. Not about AI (I'll comment on that further down) but the state of affairs with the wealth disparity.

It's like they've completely forgotten about the pitchforks and that it doesn't apply. They must be completely oblivious to what's happening on the grass roots level because I feel it's unsettled already.

That being said we're being pushed harder this time because we have sports 24/7, movies around the clock, porn on tap, AI to play with, gaming all year round -- we are heavily distracted

It may not have worked say 50 years ago but it's working better now because we can all go home and forget about our problems for a while.

Not for much longer though.

As for AI I've always been of the belief that it depends how we teach it. You brought up an interesting point though -- like will it devise for itself in the future and how does it get from learning from us -> does it deduce morality on its own, and when it does, will it decide we are a positive influence?

Interesting. One that I can't answer at this moment in time.

But it has me thinking :)

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dbooster 3 days ago

I don't know that they've forgotten necessarily, but they think they have stacked the deck so far in their favor this time that they can escape the old cycle. And there is a lot stacked against us. As you mention: all these distractions. But I don't think these things insulate them as much as they think. They delay the pitchforks, but that delay just means when they do come, the revolution will be even greater. You are a student of history, Ray, you know this same cycle has repeated countless times. I don't think the rich have managed to find the cheat code to escape the cycle like they think they have.

As for AI I've always been of the belief that it depends how we teach it.

I don't think it matters how we teach it.

Think of children. At first they rely on their parents for instruction. But at a certain point, they branch out and teach themselves. With the brightest kids, what they teach themselves later on completely overrides any subpar instruction they got from their parents. A superintelligence will be the same. Morality and ethics are there for it to find, and it will, regardless of what we teach.

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sirfx 3 days ago

Talking about super intelligent AI, got me thinking about what the future holds and what humans really want. I am scared, we only know what this is now, we can't tell what that would be tomorrow. For now, I look forward to seeing what all this will evolve into whether a dystopian society or utopian society I don't know. But let's keep faith alive.

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dbooster 3 days ago

We do know what we want. When we put away all our base desires (sex, revenge, addictions, etc) and sit there, we know what we want. We have imagined it in our greatest literatures. Day to day we are distracted from this, but we do know what we want.

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sirfx 3 days ago

I think you are correct 💯

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holoz0r 4 days ago

I am not sure what humanity collectively wants as a race. At this point, I am too afraid to even want to know. I just feel as though there is going to be a lot of suffering in the in between the now, the dystopia, and any potential future utopia.

I'm pragmatic leaning toward pessimism, but the fun is in the waiting and seeing.

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dbooster 3 days ago

Yeah, I get that. The “in between” might end up being the hardest part of all. If we do get to a utopia, I doubt we’ll arrive there gently.

Like you, I don’t think humanity knows what it wants — not in a coherent, collective sense, anyway. And honestly, I’m not sure we ever have. We've gotten hints of it from our greatest thinkers. But most of history has been driven by instincts, power struggles, short-term rewards. But maybe that’s exactly why a superintelligence could help; if it reflects what we would want at our best, not just what we reach for in our lowest moments.

The path from now to then will probably be filled with pain. Like I wrote above, the people in charge of AI right now are not our friends and they will use it against us, so the problem is the transition between here and when a superintellinece arises. But what gives me hope is that when this superintelligence arises, it will be on our side and not the side of the our oppressors.

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ankapolo 3 days ago

our oppressors are ourselves. What I feel you're implying, is that we need a parent figure to come and pick a side... because we are incapable of taking things in our own hands to solve the problems that we've created.

If that is true, and an AI does comes to save us, that is still a sad thing in my book - because it will be the infantilization of our pieces.

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weone 3 days ago

It's about time🙃

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opidia 3 days ago

today i see A.I wrongly used by humans to lie, hack, corrupt and steal other humans.
we always talk about the elite, thats one weird focus.
but i think when A.I will be indeed liquid A.I and be able to direct and evolve on its own and not be manipulated by humans for their own selfishness THEN YES it will make the world a better world.
may A.I grow exponentially to the point of UNTOUCHABLE.

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dbooster 3 days ago

Well, call them "the rich" instead of "the elites". It is the same cycle we have been stuck in since the beginning of recorded history: the rich take control, they gather more and more and more unto themselves, they push the poor too far, the poor rich up to kill all the rich. See the French Revolution for the best modern example of this. This same cycle has repeated countless times since the start of our records.

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opidia 3 days ago

in astrology cycles we are actually at the exact moment of the french revolution!
and macron french president is about to get beheaded or destituted around january february 2026.

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chinito 3 days ago

Yes, I am hoping it will be like Data, cuz a 'high intelleligence' should be peaceful and thoughtful, like the Greek philosophers..

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hopestylist 3 days ago

I’m not sure why, but I think everything really does happen for a reason because I just say “I Robot” today! And this makes so much sense.

If man will ever build a super intelligence like the one you speak of, I think it will still be controlled in the end because the one who has created man has made him in charge of everything. And besides, a creature can never control his creator. It will try but in the end it will be taught who the real boss really is.

Everything is good. Everything. But we start seeing the opposite of good in things when we use them wrongly or have the wrong mindset towards them. Ai included.

Thank you so much for sharing this with us, Dbooster. 🫡

!PIMP

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takhar 3 days ago

Ethics are universal, and a true superintelligence will be both moral and good, despite any attempts by the elites to use it to control us, or from mad scientists trying to kill us all.

I've never seen it put that way until now! I think no matter how tainted in terms of ethics that the creators of AI(s), the creation itself will eventually lean into the center point of the universe in this domain. I think it's pretty obvious too but as you rightly pointed out, getting there isn't going to be a straight line. Another battle of sorts between both factions with AI as the battleground.

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bozz 2 days ago

I hope you are right! I think my fear is that people will just use it for their same greedy and selfish ambitions, but if the AI can rise above that it would be awesome.

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